tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post7412701593239157951..comments2024-03-12T12:38:23.542-04:00Comments on The Kind of Face You Hate: Bride at the Alamobill r.http://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-10284728182315437562010-03-31T16:47:20.268-04:002010-03-31T16:47:20.268-04:00Hey, I was trying to drink that water! What's...Hey, I was trying to drink that water! What's wrong with you?Neil Sarverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02832804229444976459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-53444233706176996922010-03-31T15:16:30.338-04:002010-03-31T15:16:30.338-04:00Neil - This is all getting a bit thick, on my end....Neil - This is all getting a bit thick, on my end. I'm not sure I'm quite making the kind of plain sense I hope I made in the post itself. The reason is that I can't say for sure what <i>kind</i> of laughter I was hearing -- derisive, ironic, etc. -- and I'd hate to assume too much (which I may have already done). All I feel 100% confident about is that laughter was coming from a disconnect between the audience (some of it) and the film, and I believe that disconnect was there from the beginning, and those people had no interest in having it any other way.<br /><br />But I am as frustrated with the ironic crowd as you are, and I love your points about Tarantino. My hands are thrown up right alongside yours.<br /><br />Tony - <br /><br /><i>I felt like, You guys should know better</i>.<br /><br />Exactly. I always thought that was the whole deal with the Alamo crowd -- that they knew better, and had deep respect for the films that were shown (at least, those that were shown without the irony built-in, like it would be with Ed Wood's films, or ROBOT MONSTER, or THE ROOM, or etc.). And the event itself was deeply respectful of Whale and BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN. But some of the crowd didn't know what they were getting. Not to muddy the same things I just tried to unmuddy in my response to Neil, but I wonder if some in the theater knew so little about BRIDE that they just naturally assumed it was in the Ed Wood category.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-73137752242181830442010-03-31T14:06:54.086-04:002010-03-31T14:06:54.086-04:00You know I had the same experience in a college fi...You know I had the same experience in a college film class. It's been nearly 20 years, but I guess watching all of these Nicholas Ray films has brought it back to mind.<br /><br />We were watching REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE and a group of my classmates strted having a too hip, ironic laugh at Dean's emoting. I felt like, You guys should know better. The overwrought Method style of the fifties was in vogue and Dean's performance was perfectly calibrated to what was expected at the time.<br /><br />I often wonder why so few can't simply switch off that misguided judgemental take on art, and recognize somethings are just endemic to the period or style, the way a certain technique of painting or musical composition is correct within the context of their respective movements.Tony Dayoubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632329277519635858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-61041511481510549882010-03-31T12:17:29.940-04:002010-03-31T12:17:29.940-04:00I guess that's just my inference then, I'm...I guess that's just my inference then, I'm sorry. I will add, however, that I'm not sure that viewing <i>only</i> from an ironic point of view is inherently less sophisticated.<br /><br />Mind you, I'm not taking down all modern audiences, all Alamo audiences or all members of any of those audiences... and I knew you didn't intend to either. I've had many excellent experiences as well with audiences that completely - or at least mostly - able to meet the movie at the movie's own level.<br /><br />But I continue to find great frustration with ironic crowd, specifically because of what I see as that basic hypocrisy... A view that they are better or smarter than some other audience, be they of another time, place socio-economic class or what-have-you or of the moviemakers themselves. There always feels an implicit assumption - and maybe it's my own bias in inferring it - that they, the ironic viewer is smarter, and I challenge that they are not specifically because their view and appreciation is so narrow.Neil Sarverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02832804229444976459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-51269717839714766322010-03-31T10:12:34.222-04:002010-03-31T10:12:34.222-04:00Thanks, Neil. I don't know that I intended to...Thanks, Neil. I don't know that I intended to imply that audiences are much <i>less</i> sophisticated, although that may be true, but rather that they are more ironic. That may be the key. Irony rules all these days. It especially insinuates itself when modern audiences watch older movies. They may not mean their reaction to be derisive, but the amount of distance it creates can certainly make it seem pretty condescending. Many people just don't want to try to connect with styles of filmmaking they're not used to, or that they view as out-of-date, so they try to engage on their own terms, rather then the terms set by the film.<br /><br />Sometimes, the film is just bad -- old films can be bad too -- and that's okay, or maybe they just don't like the film, and then it's a matter of subjectivity, but I don't think that was the case with some of the audience at the Alamo. It was a case of too much irony, and an assumption that BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN was best viewed as an artifact, rather than a film.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-5340711587811678352010-03-31T09:41:03.918-04:002010-03-31T09:41:03.918-04:00Great article. I think my feelings on Bride are e...Great article. I think my feelings on <i>Bride</i> are essentially equivalent to yours. I fully recognize it's brilliance, but it's not my favorite James Whale movie or Universal Horror movie.<br /><br />I haven't been to a Cinema Club screening yet, but I have similar problems going to the various repertory showings at the Alamo, which probably makes my goings less frequent than they might otherwise be, but then I might be partly be making excuses for my laziness/poverty.<br /><br />Nevertheless, it is a problem in the experience of seeing these movies on the big screen with a crowd. There's always a weird mix of people, some of whom are like us who genuinely want an opportunity to connect even better with these movies and the kind of ironic viewers who are unable or unwilling to make that connection and choose instead to laugh at them.<br /><br />Of course, it's a difficult line at times, as you note with <i>Bride</i> and others that have intentional laughs (and even intentional camp elements) along with genuine drama and sentiment, because frankly I think audiences are, as you may have intended to imply, are significantly <i>less</i> sophisticated today and <i>vastly</i> less able to recognize these kinds of shifts in dramatic tone. I think the audience that grew up on television is now so used to having their tones spoon fed to them with laugh tracks and clear boundaries between drama and comedy that these things outright confound them.<br /><br />I just look at the basic audience understanding of Tarantino, who is contemporary, and not a camp or ironic moviemaker and how poorly that is understood by so much, not only of the modern audience as a whole but <i>his</i> audience, and I just have to throw up my arms.Neil Sarverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02832804229444976459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-6554849825147505522010-03-30T22:49:36.484-04:002010-03-30T22:49:36.484-04:00Walker, the laughter wasn't always derisive. ...Walker, the laughter wasn't always derisive. When it was inappropriate, it was either based on an inability or unwillingness to take note of when the comedy stopped, or, as was the case with the blind hermit scene, a disinterest in what was actually going on in the scene. What was going on for them was a replay of the Gene Hackman scene in Brooks' film. That's all they cared about. Really, in that case, the laughter began as soon as the hermit appeared on screen. "Young Frankenstein" had to be the root.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-6329090640772970222010-03-30T21:58:48.981-04:002010-03-30T21:58:48.981-04:00I think you put too much emphasis on the influence...I think you put too much emphasis on the influence of Young Frankenstein, probably out of a reasonable search for meaning and motivation behind the derisive laughter. I bet most of those hipsters hadn't even seen Bride of Frankenstein either. The fact is those people are annoying losers who need to be aggressively shushed and even confronted directly. I've done it myself many times and it's quite effective. Usually their courage comes from the darkness and the belief that they have the support of their peers. As soon as they hear the hint of confrontation, they silence right up. Don't hold back.OlmanFeelyushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17521657876810568251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-78031641987019626922010-03-30T20:35:15.949-04:002010-03-30T20:35:15.949-04:00Yes, Thesiger is very creepy. He's frequently...Yes, Thesiger is very creepy. He's frequently funny at the same time ("You're wise in your generation"), but he's always creepy.<br /><br />This point:<br /><br /><i>Most horror-comedies simply throw out different moments for you – a laugh here, a scream there – fairly haphazardly, but in Bride the two exist in the very same instant</i><br /><br />...is excellent, and that's what I should have said when talking about how difficult the film is. You say later that it's on another plane from your typical horror-comedy, and it really is. I talked about the tonal shifts (as did Schatz) being so rapid-fire, but I think you're closer to the truth: there are no tonal shifts, really (okay, there are a few), but rather the tonal variations exist at the same time.<br /><br />This doesn't excuse bad laughs though (which you're not claiming, I understand). It comes down to, I believe, an inability to imagine a horror film that's 75 years old meaning to do to you what it's doing, and, more to my original point, that the emotional stuff is meant sincerely, and is created with great skill, and is not sappy simply by virtue of being old. <br /><br />Mel Brooks wasn't spoofing the movie because he thought it was bad, or corny. He was spoofing it because it was so big that it made a really fun target. But Brooks got the movie, I think. His fans, maybe not so much.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-47859550470884747762010-03-30T19:41:29.257-04:002010-03-30T19:41:29.257-04:00I really enjoyed this article Bill. I've been ...I really enjoyed this article Bill. I've been lucky enough to see <i>Bride of Frankenstein</i> in the theaters too, and it is really powerful stuff. There may have been a few laughs, and I undoubtably would have been annoyed by them at the time, but I've forgotten. If I absolutely had to choose between the two Whale Franksteins it would probably be bride though only by a hair, and I feel the way that many people trumpet it actually seeks to diminish it. <br /><br />It's not really the fact that <i>Bride</i> is an early example of horror-comedy that elevates it. For me the real genius of <i>Bride</i> is how it's able to mix moods. Most horror-comedies simply throw out different moments for you – a laugh here, a scream there – fairly haphazardly, but in <i>Bride</i> the two exist in the very same instant. The camp elements of Thesiger's performance have been so hyped over the years, for example, that few seem to notice how genuinely creepy he is, even at those times when he's at his funniest. I even hesitate to call it a “horror-comedy” as it's on such a different emotional plane. It <i>is</i> the sadness that elevates it, and whenever I see it praised primarily because “it's meant to be camp” I get annoyed.<br /><br />There's really nothing that makes me angrier than derisive, above-it-all laughter at rep showings, unless it's something like <i>Troll 2</i> where that's the purpose. I used to think it was just an unfortunate aspect of my generation but I remember Sarris deriding devotees of “camp pop and trivia” who were sullying Griffith revivals back in the sixties. The thing I really have a problem with is, and I'm sure I'll come off like a pompous ass saying this, how limited their perspective really is. Anything that differs from current cinematic tropes and styles is seen as somehow deficient, either some kind of relic or joke. A way to assert your superiority over “those simpletons” who lived before you. As you say there's a distance that they erect that never allows them to truly see the greatness that's in a film like <i>Bride</i>.<br /><br />Also this is way too long.Krauthammerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14426806666095796310noreply@blogger.com