tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post7947814936836962261..comments2024-03-12T12:38:23.542-04:00Comments on The Kind of Face You Hate: The Kind of Face You SLASH!!! - Day 2: Decaying Vegetable Matterbill r.http://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-55176178014488052622010-10-08T16:11:08.744-04:002010-10-08T16:11:08.744-04:00"My other comments were simply an attempt to ..."My other comments were simply an attempt to speak up in defense of literary ambiguity, which those two responders I singled out seemed to view as a bad thing..."<br /><br />No. At least in my case; I can't speak for Bryce.<br /><br />"...they are simply agreeing with an idea I laid out here, and which, at its base, you don't seem to have a beef with, either. I assure you, the problem isn't ambiguity; the problem is the misuse of ambiguity."<br /><br />Yes.Frank Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-47218727213243121322010-10-04T10:31:11.448-04:002010-10-04T10:31:11.448-04:00I summed up my take on this story about four posts...I summed up my take on this story about four posts back, and that should be my last word on it, at least until I get around to reading it again, eventually (hopefully).<br /><br />My other comments were simply an attempt to speak up in defense of literary ambiguity, which those two responders I singled out seemed to view as a bad thing, apparently because they seem to think it just boils down to that tiresome question of "Is it really happening or not???"<br /><br />No, it's not that simple, fortunately, and as I tried to point out, I believe this story demonstrates that point clearly enough.<br /><br />I don't take your point about "irony" w.r.t. Turn of the Screw, though, because for one thing I admit my memory of the Onions is foggy and, two, similar to your take on Pan's Labyrinth, I'm only offering (not dogmatically claiming) an interpretation that I believe is clearly supported by the text.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-34993052036504314582010-10-04T09:24:57.688-04:002010-10-04T09:24:57.688-04:00Neil - I'll watch it and report back.
Frank -...Neil - I'll watch it and report back.<br /><br />Frank - Thanks! I will say (if I may) that maybe you shouldn't worry too much about what modern readers expect, but I would absolutely agree that the brand of ambiguity offered in this kind of fiction is empty, and without purpose.<br /><br />John - I don't think I understand what your point is anymore. You seem to think that I (and Bryce and Frank) have something against ambiguity as an idea. I certainly don't, and I doubt Frank and Bryce do, either. Our issue is with this particular type of ghost story, which you claim to have no time for yourself. Your problem with my post, from what I can now gather, is that you don't remember "The Beckoning Fair One" <i>being</i> ambiguous in the way I claim. Well, it is, so maybe you should read it again (and no offense, but there's a certain irony in your statements about THE TURN OF THE SCREW in relation to your recollection of "The Beckoning Fair One").<br /><br />I don't see why Bryce and Frank need to be singled out for anything, since they are simply agreeing with an idea I laid out here, and which, at its base, you don't seem to have a beef with, either. I assure you, the problem isn't ambiguity; the problem is the <i>misuse</i> of ambiguity.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-20100455664158710662010-10-04T02:53:37.237-04:002010-10-04T02:53:37.237-04:00Needless to say, by "some people" I don&...Needless to say, by "some people" I don't mean to include <i>you</i>, Bill. But I am also thinking of the "Let the reader/watcher/listener decide" crowd, who take every open ending or not fully explained away detail as an invitation by the creator to fill in the "blanks"--like a story or movie or whatever is essentially a complicated Mad Libs game that has no meaning until we give it one.<br /><br />I've said it before and I'll say it again: there's nothing definitive about the meanings we might try to pin onto someone else's creation. It's fine to wonder what the artist meant by this or by that--indeed, isn't that one of the highest goals of art, to inspire wonder? On the other hand, it's still utterly dopey for someone in the audience to say, this is what he meant by that, because that's what I choose for it to be (e.g., The Turn of the Screw).Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-27596222742279287092010-10-04T01:35:56.601-04:002010-10-04T01:35:56.601-04:00I'd also add that responses like Bryce's a...I'd also add that responses like Bryce's and Frank B's merely confirm to me that some people don't get "ambiguity" very well. It's not just a question of "Is X real or a figment of this guy's imagination?" Rather, it's a quality that extends more or less into every area of our perspectives on and understandings of reality, and especially into the written word, with all its imprecision.<br /><br />Good writers understand this, and can, to some extent, harness the inherent ambiguity of their writing to sometimes profound effect.<br /><br />Bad writers, on the other hand, not only are generally ignorant of this, but instead produce ambiguities in their writing by accident or out of sheer laziness, which render much of their prose inherently meaningless unless an overly tolerant reader is willing to fill in the gaps.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-50989496935930761702010-10-04T01:25:47.584-04:002010-10-04T01:25:47.584-04:00I'll admit, I don't remember the story all...I'll admit, I don't remember the story all that well these days, but I can't recall being too vexed by the question of "Is it <i>really</i> a ghost?" when I read it. (And I, too, don't have much time for fictional works where the question of "Is what we're seeing 'real' or just present in so-and-so's head?" is An Important Point To Consider.)<br /><br />It seemed pretty clear to me at the time that the creepy things the protagonist was experiencing were all, or at least, for the most part, supposed to be taken as real phenomena of clearly supernatural origin, edging him gradually towards some kind of personal obsession and thence to madness. The climax, in particular, for some reason, I seem to remember being pretty clear, even blatant, about this, but again, I'm not able to say why at this point.<br /><br />Any uncertainty or ambiguity I did find in the story was more connected with the intrinsic nature of the haunting (as something almost entirely beyond our ken), its "purpose" or design, its intent (if benevolent or malicious), whether these things even apply to it at all, etc, etc. I came away thinking the haunting was undoubtedly a real, if inexplicable phenomenon, but the protagonist's reaction to it was based on his entirely subjective desires, projected onto something he (like us) didn't understand, that may or may not have had his best interests in mind, so to speak.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-51221690812301439602010-10-03T18:51:16.955-04:002010-10-03T18:51:16.955-04:00Great post! The subject has particular relevance t...Great post! The subject has particular relevance to me; I recently completed the second draft of my first novel, which happens to be a supernatural horror story dealing with possession. I had to make the decision early on whether, and to what extent, I was going to play the ambiguity game. I opted to lay my cards on the table for all of the reasons you've covered above. Also, readers these days generally want to know ahead of time what kind of story they're investing in. If they want horror and ghosts, they want horror and ghosts; if they hate the genre, they'll want to steer clear. What exactly would be the purpose of stringing them along? Like you said, it can be a tiresome game when played for its own sake. I'm sending this entry to myself so I can lazily forward it the next time this subject comes up. Thanks for doing my thinking for me!Frank Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-4961124778666182752010-10-03T15:46:23.989-04:002010-10-03T15:46:23.989-04:00I absolutely loved Diary of a Madman years ago whe...I absolutely loved <i>Diary of a Madman</i> years ago when I saw, I suspect in high school. I haven't been so lucky as to see it again, although I've meant to make an effort to see it any number of times since then.<br /><br />If when I do see it again, I find it was merely another example of younger Neil being foolish or generous, I will still be grateful to have seen and loved it, as it introduced me to the writings of M. Maupassant.Neil Sarverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02832804229444976459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-74930921613757704772010-10-03T09:23:59.423-04:002010-10-03T09:23:59.423-04:00Neil - I have that on DVR! I've never seen it...Neil - I have that on DVR! I've never seen it before. I take it it's good?<br /><br />John - I'm never overly fond of writing one of these posts about a writer I had no prior experience of, and I'm not dismissing the guy outright. I didn't think "The Beckoning Fair One" was anywhere near bad enough for that. It's just that this ghost/no ghost device is really wearing me down, and Onions' story was maybe the last straw.<br /><br />Also, I'm not saying that Onions was deliberately grubbing for elitist praise -- I said he may well have had no such thing on his mind. My point is that this sort of ambiguity functions in that way regardless of intent.<br /><br />And I much prefer subtlety and ambiguity in my horror fiction, though I don't see why it should be either that or "balls out". Still, Robert Aickman is possibly my favorite horror writer of all time, and both subtlety and ambiguity got extensive workouts in all of his stories. I had a very specific criticism in this post, and wasn't taking a swipe at quiet horror fiction at all. I just think the ghost/no ghost premise is boring, and overpraised precisely because there might not be a ghost, therefore rendering the story more psychologically "realistic". I think it's a cheap ploy, and I don't like it.<br /><br />Bryce - Thanks. And I don't think PAN'S LABYRINTH is doing that at all. I know Del Toro has claimed otherwise, but there are certain elements to the way that film plays out that makes the idea that it's all in her imagination simply not work at all.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-69517909542850562172010-10-03T03:50:09.015-04:002010-10-03T03:50:09.015-04:00Thank you for summing up things that always bother...Thank you for summing up things that always bothered me, much more eloquently then I could. <br /><br />The only Horror film that played the ambiguity card at all well in the past while, was Pan's Labrynith. And it's definitely debatable, how much it's playing that card at all.Bryce Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17040954580033470664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-49833352900197237592010-10-03T02:43:13.779-04:002010-10-03T02:43:13.779-04:00I should add that I take issue with your implicati...I should add that I take issue with your implications that Onions was trying to cater towards snooty "Horror isn't literature" types by penning a subtle horror story with relatively delicate hints of the supernatural, as opposed to today's "balls out" approach. Subtlety and ambiguity are key stylistic features of most if not all of the best and most memorable ghost and horror stories ever written. Whether Onions uses them to good effect or not, there's no denying "Beckoning Fair One" or any of his other horror tales are exactly that, stories that are designed to disturb, creep out, and haunt the reader, but maybe with an extra layer of emotional complexity.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-28424265102508777972010-10-03T02:28:13.232-04:002010-10-03T02:28:13.232-04:00I read this a long time ago, and remember thinking...I read this a long time ago, and remember thinking it was terrific, and not really all that ambiguous (like Turn of the Screw, despite its phony lit-crit rep). However, I'll have to reread it before I can make any kind of detailed comment on it, and I can't say when that might happen.<br /><br />Onions had a number of fine ghost and borderline-horror stories to his name, including one called "Rooum" that I do happen to recall in pretty vivid detail, an original and striking piece of work that I also didn't find all that ambiguous.<br /><br />Of course, in both stories, the exact nature of the haunting is not fully explained, and that's how it should be, or else you end up with something prosaic and mundane, as all too many modern horror stories have proved.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-35795741409735960952010-10-02T18:17:02.486-04:002010-10-02T18:17:02.486-04:00I love "The Horla".
I have nothing to s...I love "The Horla".<br /><br />I have nothing to say about anything not related to Maupassant's brilliance.<br /><br />Although I do wish now I had a copy of <i>Diary of a Madman</i> with Vincent Price.Neil Sarverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02832804229444976459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-29110330630511004012010-10-02T11:37:10.033-04:002010-10-02T11:37:10.033-04:00Richard, I do honestly like, even love, a lot of c...Richard, I do honestly like, even love, a lot of classic ghost stories. I think there are bad ones too, obviously, but what disappoints me about stories like "The Beckoning Fair One" is that I wish Onions would shit or get off the pot, and that this stuff wouldn't be overpraised years later simply because no one is sure if there was even a ghost in there in the first place.<br /><br />Rod - To hell with him, indeed. In fact, I hope he's ROTTING IN HELL!bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-36517175321676080902010-10-02T11:12:44.159-04:002010-10-02T11:12:44.159-04:00I always did get a laugh out of Edmund Wilson'...I always did get a laugh out of Edmund Wilson's crack about HP Lovecraft and invisible whistling octopi. On the other hand, to hell with Edmund Wilson, anyway.Roderick Heathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08107539379079558068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-87481747289799591892010-10-02T10:57:34.400-04:002010-10-02T10:57:34.400-04:00I've meant to get to this for quite a long tim...I've <i>meant</i> to get to this for quite a long time but it's as you say (implicitly, anyway)... so many of these classic ghost stories just lay there to the modern eye. I don't know if we're spoiled or stupid or if the genre has just been wrung out of any existing juice but I'm rarely bowled over by an old ghost story, even though I collect them obsessively. There are occasional good lines of description but little in the way of total effect. I am rereading Dorothy Mcardle's <i>The Uninvited</i> this Halloween, which I remember as a charming book from my initial reading a few years back. We'll see how it holds up<br /><br />By the way, my middle name is pronounced "Hairlund."Richard Harland Smithhttp://www.moviemorlocks.com/blognoreply@blogger.com