tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post6997365334089036337..comments2024-03-12T12:38:23.542-04:00Comments on The Kind of Face You Hate: Solved Nothingbill r.http://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-25337117875500901282011-03-14T23:41:35.159-04:002011-03-14T23:41:35.159-04:00BLH - Where does Penn go broad in NIGHT MOVES? I j...<i>BLH - Where does Penn go broad in NIGHT MOVES? I just watched it again, and I don't see that at all. B&C, yes, it's there (I'm not crazy about the performances in that one, either), but NIGHT MOVES is wonderfully downplayed, I always thought.</i><br /><br />Basically, it felt to me like every supporting character had been instructed to "make an impression," so to speak. It's been a while, but I can think of a few off-hand: the man Harry's wife has an affair with, James Woods, and Delly's mother. They seem to be playing up the narrative functions of their characters rather than making nuanced humans out of them.BLHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-27308880122423880972011-03-08T19:55:30.415-05:002011-03-08T19:55:30.415-05:00Well, that's all mighty fair of you, Craig (an...Well, that's all mighty fair of you, Craig (and I also really liked Harris's book). And I'd say accurate, too. It's just that where you find meaning, I just find more shallowness. Shallowness that doesn't even realize how shallow it is.<br /><br />Of course, my problems go further then that, which I guess you've gathered, and I just can't disconnect from that. I acknowledge and understand everything you're saying, but it just doesn't mean anything to me. I know too much about the real Bonnie and Clyde, and the glib (good word) approach to authority and lawlessness in the film, and I just cringe.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-5574297731186085002011-03-08T13:16:21.533-05:002011-03-08T13:16:21.533-05:00Bonnie and Clyde is one of those movies that revea...<i>Bonnie and Clyde</i> is one of those movies that reveals my hypocrisy about ostensibly judging a film only by what's onscreen. I like the movie, but I always feel a little detached from it. I don't feel coerced into much empathy for the criminals (they're far too buffoonish for that), nor am I appalled by the portrayal of the police (ditto); I don't really feel anything for either side, and that's a problem. Smug isn't quite the right word I'd use to describe the film's tone; more like glib.<br /><br />And yet. When I step back and view <i>Bonnie and Clyde</i> as a product of its time, the movie has more meaning to me. Mark Harris's wonderful <i>Pictures at a Revolution</i> (a great book about the five Best Picture nominees of 1967, even if you don't like any of them) reveals a lot of detail about how Robert Benton and David Newman wanted to write an American film that was similar in spirit to the French New Wave. (Truffaut and Godard each seriously considered directing <i>B&C</i>.) Beatty and Penn consciously adopted the style that Benton and Newman were going for in the early 60s, adding to it the cultural issues that had manifested themselves by the later half of the decade. This makes some of the actions of the (anti)heroes seem more politicized and romantic (as when Clyde encourages the farmer to shoot out the windows), whereas anyone wearing a uniform was not to be trusted. And Penn and Dede Allen edited the climax to echo what they saw as the inferno unfolding in Vietnam. <br /><br />I'm not saying I necessarily <i>agree</i> with any of this, or even sympathize with it. But it does make what unfolds onscreen more interesting to me. It adds another layer to what is essentially a fairly shallow movie.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01450775188328918558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-45058972109338793292011-03-08T10:07:40.528-05:002011-03-08T10:07:40.528-05:00Well I can see you feel pretty strongly about it.Well I can see you feel pretty strongly about it.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-14533010591305609312011-03-08T02:22:05.790-05:002011-03-08T02:22:05.790-05:00Morality, Schmorality. I Spit on your Grave is a ...Morality, Schmorality. I Spit on your Grave is a steaming piece of shit start to finish, on every level. Any bad rap it gets, it deserves. I like Easy Rider, but I will admit to hippie-ish tendencies.Kellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-11780350578185272502011-03-07T20:12:33.580-05:002011-03-07T20:12:33.580-05:00I don't know, man. My anti-B&C stance has ...I don't know, man. My anti-B&C stance has already caused me a lot of grief. Well, this and Charlie Sheen/Catholicism. But even so, I have to see EASY RIDER eventually, right? So what the hell, why not.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-90671386145951165232011-03-07T20:01:28.353-05:002011-03-07T20:01:28.353-05:00Can I start a petition to get Bill to watch -- and...Can I start a petition to get Bill to watch -- and write about -- Easy Rider? Now, that's a demolition job I'd pay to read. At least we mostly all agree that B & C is well made.Tom Carsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01008070887949992808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-36630485758673699752011-03-07T17:50:03.623-05:002011-03-07T17:50:03.623-05:00Oh, I've seen the ending. You can't watch...Oh, I've seen the ending. You can't watch a documentary or TV show about late 60s cinema and not see the ending of EASY RIDER.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-10635246496312201942011-03-07T15:16:26.216-05:002011-03-07T15:16:26.216-05:00Plus also, I've never seen EASY RIDER. Can you...<i>Plus also, I've never seen EASY RIDER. Can you even believe it??? But then, I don't like hippies</i>.<br /><br />Well, now you know they get killed at the end. Oops. But maybe that'll make you like it better.Greg F.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12988142631436195913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-67200930044728343892011-03-07T10:14:06.661-05:002011-03-07T10:14:06.661-05:00Dennis - Well, I hope to read your reaction to see...Dennis - Well, I hope to read your reaction to seeing B&C again, either on SLIFR or elsewhere. I've long known that I'm in the minority regarding my reaction to it (and I'm glad to have Greg in my corner), and I even thought that watching it again after years of simmering disdain, even as my memory of the specifics of the film faded, might encourage a rethinking of my stance. But nope!<br /><br />And I loved PENN & TELLER GET KILLED when I was a kid, but I haven't seen it since. I have fond memories of it, though.<br /><br />Also, I came very close to watching the I SPIT ON YOUR GRAVE remake this weekend, based on what you said, but the wife was always hanging around, and I didn't think she'd be up for it. I'll get to it, though.<br /><br />And Kelly, I don't exactly like the original I SPIT ON YOUR GRAVE, but that doesn't mean I don't think it gets a bad rap, regarding its morality, or lack thereof, depending on who you ask.<br /><br />BLH - Where does Penn go broad in NIGHT MOVES? I just watched it again, and I don't see that at all. B&C, yes, it's there (I'm not crazy about the performances in that one, either), but NIGHT MOVES is wonderfully downplayed, I always thought.<br /><br />Greg - Excuse me, I wasn't in the mood to think too much this weekend, so I read these comments and thought "Er, I should respond, but that means using my brain..." Plus also, I've never seen EASY RIDER. Can you even believe it??? But then, I don't like hippies.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-45612937578655945812011-03-06T14:39:57.903-05:002011-03-06T14:39:57.903-05:00Well, Bill hasn't responded yet but I just wan...Well, Bill hasn't responded yet but I just want to say, without jumping back into the fray, that Dennis' mention of <b>Easy Rider</b> was a welcome one because that's essentially the companion piece to <b>Bonnie and Clyde</b> in many ways (right down to being gunned down at the end by the enemy of our heroes). They're much closer to the <b>Easy Rider</b> model for me than the standard gangster model. I never much liked <b>Easy Rider</b>, save Jack Nicholson, so maybe that's a part of my reaction to <b>Bonnie and Clyde</b>.Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05730146625671701859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-57399389239561453712011-03-06T11:38:19.801-05:002011-03-06T11:38:19.801-05:00It's interesting what you say about The Left-H...It's interesting what you say about The Left-Handed Gun seeming "pitched to the back of the theater." Truth is, The Missouri Breaks is the only Penn film I've seen that doesn't feel similarly pitched. He seems to particularly encourage his actors to go broad at every opportunity in Bonnie & Clyde and Little Big Man and Night Moves. <br /><br />Mind you, I like all of these films quite a bit, but I wouldn't argue very passionately that any of them are actually improved by the choices Penn makes as director. I was surprised when I saw The Missouri Breaks; it's as if Penn finally looked up the entry on "sensitivity" in his Film Director's Handbook.BLHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-9771867472670985542011-03-05T03:12:38.861-05:002011-03-05T03:12:38.861-05:00Dennis I might not love Penn And Teller Gets Kille...Dennis I might not love Penn And Teller Gets Killed (I haven't seen it) but I might be the world's only Targets fan.Bryce Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17040954580033470664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-48804097489551673372011-03-04T21:40:48.053-05:002011-03-04T21:40:48.053-05:00And Bill, don't throw yourself into the garbag...And Bill, don't throw yourself into the garbage just yet. I'm curious to know (on a totally un-Penn-related note) what you thought of the remake of <i>I Spit On Your Grave</i>.Dennis Cozzaliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01954848938471883431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-67928394480482257052011-03-04T21:39:12.158-05:002011-03-04T21:39:12.158-05:00All this conversation, civil, uncivil and otherwis...All this conversation, civil, uncivil and otherwise (?) has served to spark my dormant desire to see <i>Bonnie and Clyde</i> again, and I'm very glad for that. And <i>Night Moves</i>. And <i>The Missouri Breaks</i>.<br /><br />The issue of representation of sociopaths is mighty complicated, and the reception and interpretation of those portrayals and the images surrounding and contextualizing them is just as complicated when filmmakers like Penn (and Tarantino et al.) begin to poke at a genre's innards and see if it has a different kind of life in it. A lot of movies that came from the era in which <i>Bonnie and Clyde</i> that were heralded as representative of the sea change in Hollywood away from studio excess and artificiality (<i>Easy Rider</i>, I'm looking at you) have been revealed, by our old friend Time, to be as self-serving to a generation's romanticized vision of itself, as misunderstood and victimized, as any mediocre melodrama from the '40s could be. I don't see why the same couldn't be true of <i>Bonnie and Clyde</i>, and it's certainly not unprecedented that seeing a movie through 50-year-old eyes (mine or anybody's) can often bring new perspective, negative and positive, to beloved movies from our past. <br /><br />I've always liked <i>Bonnie and Clyde</i> but never loved it and I am very interested in seeing how it plays to me now, especially after reading this piece and the reaction to it. And I promise I remain open to the possibility that it may indeed be either all that, or that maybe the bag of chips have gone stale. In the same regard, I suspect that though I always loved Arlo Guthrie's song, Penn's movie of <i>Alice's Restaurant</i> is one I might have much more patience for than I did when I was 17 and saw it for the first time. And I'm always up for Brando in a dress. <i>Night Moves</i> is almost beyond reproach, as far as I'm concerned.<br /><br />But let's get down to it: Who loves <i>Penn and Teller Get Killed</i>? I kinda do!Dennis Cozzaliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01954848938471883431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-21457592573072342302011-03-04T14:30:22.158-05:002011-03-04T14:30:22.158-05:00Accepted from both of you. Now I'm going to l...Accepted from both of you. Now I'm going to leave the internet for a while before someone else throws me into the garbage.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-88158648828140122011-03-04T14:19:22.437-05:002011-03-04T14:19:22.437-05:00The reason I got a bit testy is because I did feel...<i>The reason I got a bit testy is because I did feel as if I addressed B&C directly in my post after talking about The Roaring 20's</i>.<br /><br />I'm sure you did which is a problem I have once these discussions get down and dirty which is that I'm prone to read through something quickly and defensively.Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05730146625671701859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-52262913583942796212011-03-04T13:31:09.982-05:002011-03-04T13:31:09.982-05:00I accept your apology and offer my own both to you...I accept your apology and offer my own both to you and Bill. <br /><br />The reason I got a bit testy is because I did feel as if I addressed B&C directly in my post after talking about The Roaring 20's. <br /><br />As a matter of record, the "shenanigans" statement was a South Park reference and was meant in a light tone. I can see how if you didn't recognize the reference it could be taken the wrong way. Sorry I didn't realize it wasn't taken that way sooner. <br /><br />Like you I pride myself on a reputation of civility on the internet and hope we can put this behind us. As the reason I started debating you in the first place was I was intrigued with the points you were making. <br /><br />Who knew that Bosley Crowther was being so prophetic when his review of Bonnie And Clyde was subtitled "It Angrys Up The Blood!"Bryce Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17040954580033470664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-24496052376664230922011-03-04T12:54:39.425-05:002011-03-04T12:54:39.425-05:00Okay, Bryce, look. I got pissed off about the who...Okay, Bryce, look. I got pissed off about the whole "shenanigans" thing. Probably took it the wrong way. You're probably right about <b>The Roaring Twenties</b>. <br /><br />And then you tell me to "jog on." I'm not joking when I say I've had thousands of conversations with no problems. Bill and I have some differences, and once Rick and I got a little heated but, honestly, I like these things to stay civil and I got uncivil with my "I give up" and "break from reality" statements. <br /><br />I'm going to let this go because these things are never worth it. You have my full apologies, Bryce. <br /><br />And you too, Bill.Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05730146625671701859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-64328993861764414052011-03-04T12:48:15.832-05:002011-03-04T12:48:15.832-05:00Okay, that's probably not helping. Honestly, ...Okay, that's probably not helping. Honestly, on the actual points, I'm with Greg. I haven't seen THE ROARING TWENTIES in a really long time, so I'm in no position to get into that aspect (I wonder if I own it), but Bryce, even if your description of the film is accurate it doesn't invalidate anything said about BONNIE & CLYDE. They're different movies.<br /><br />As for the anymosity...hey, c'mon, guys! Let's not get all, you know, mad, and shit!bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-52502676499939442462011-03-04T12:43:38.732-05:002011-03-04T12:43:38.732-05:00Deep breaths. In with the good, out with the bad....Deep breaths. In with the good, out with the bad. In with the good, out with the bad.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-50762202172558632482011-03-04T12:37:52.255-05:002011-03-04T12:37:52.255-05:00But I'm tired of being civil when you clearly ...<i>But I'm tired of being civil when you clearly have no interest in doing so. So please jog on</i>.<br /><br />I shall indeed as the break with reality here is quite stunning. I said that the games you were playing with finding exceptions was not addressing the central issue. Instead of addressing the central issue you came back with exactly the same thing: Pointing out that you had found exceptions. Again, this does not in any way nullify what I was saying about Bonnie and Clyde's portrayal of its lead characters. <br /><br />REPEAT: Finding exceptions does not invalidate the central issue that in Bonnie and Clyde, they are portrayed, quite smugly, as rebellious and misunderstood. Now, we may disagree on that, and I understand that can happen, but that is the issue and it cannot be erased by simply saying, "Aha! I have found another film that does that!"<br /><br />Also, I have been online for years, have commented with thousands of people and taken parts in dozens of forums on film. I have done all of this, Bryce, without ever building a reputation of being uncivil. If I am uncivil now (and yes, I am irritated by this) but haven't been the thousands of times before, I'd have to say the difference is in the conversation you began by taking our difference of opinion and "calling shenanigans" after one of my comments. Read back through them, Bryce. I was stating my opinion but never deriding you as you did me. That's when the uncivil behavior began.Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05730146625671701859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-61896403015470179732011-03-04T12:29:37.822-05:002011-03-04T12:29:37.822-05:00Oh good, another fight. I love those.Oh good, another fight. I love those.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-6091407004618958062011-03-04T12:22:35.300-05:002011-03-04T12:22:35.300-05:00"Shenanigans now get called on facts of a plo..."Shenanigans now get called on facts of a plot? Christ have mercy, I give up. Here's what's happening:"<br />...<br /><br />Facts that's a nice word. I took issue with your interpretation of what happened in the movie. <br /><br />This is certainly something to be upset about. <br /><br />You made a declaritive statement. I found an exception.<br /><br />This is certainly also something to get upset about. <br /><br />You made the argument "Bonnie And Clyde mythologizes killers most low! Other films in this proud tradition did nothing of the sort!" I disagreed and cited examples. <br /><br />This is once more something to get upset about.<br /><br />But I'm tired of being civil when you clearly have no interest in doing so. So please jog on.Bryce Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17040954580033470664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-42295793862714663552011-03-04T12:11:28.390-05:002011-03-04T12:11:28.390-05:00I wonder how you might have taken the film if it h...<i>I wonder how you might have taken the film if it had starred (and yeah you've gotta push the timeline up for this) a young Matt Dillon and Lili Taylor with the same script?</i><br /><br />The same way, because none of my points had anything to do with their appearance, but rather with the depiction of violence and sympathy.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.com