tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post1657298012984324996..comments2024-03-12T15:02:45.193-04:00Comments on The Kind of Face You Hate: Viridiana and Mebill r.http://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-58742365713226337572008-11-18T08:57:00.000-05:002008-11-18T08:57:00.000-05:00This is a great thread to which I have nothing to ...This is a great thread to which I have nothing to add ... Marilyn and Ed's comments, especially, are right to the point. Jonathan's statement that Bunuel was railing not necessarily against the idea of a deity, but against the church, is right on, though I think that he was well aware himself of the difference.<BR/><BR/>It is so weird, I chose this weekend to watch (for the first time) two of Bunuel's classics myself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-62696041488138340102008-11-17T12:11:00.000-05:002008-11-17T12:11:00.000-05:00So anyway -- and I probably don't need to explain ...So anyway -- and I probably don't need to explain what I meant -- you're interpretation, Ed, seems to put Bunuel in the position of saying religious piety is a mug's game, and the real world will grind you down until you succumb to things you'd rather not be a part of.<BR/><BR/>And while I know this wasn't Bunuel's point, it almost feels like Viridiana would have been better off going back to the convent.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-59255844889175729862008-11-17T11:59:00.000-05:002008-11-17T11:59:00.000-05:00Ed, I didn't see your second post until I'd replie...Ed, I didn't see your second post until I'd replied, so let me add that I do like your take on the film, which puts the film into a kind of hopelessly cynical, even defeatist framework. I'll explain more later...bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-46568712853469069692008-11-17T11:57:00.000-05:002008-11-17T11:57:00.000-05:00Maybe, but she does seem genuinely happy when her ...Maybe, but she does seem genuinely happy when her charitable instincts appear to be paying off. That's not sensual pleasure, but it is pleasure.<BR/><BR/>But generally I do take your point. However, it can be argued that, given what the wide world ultimately offers Virdiana, her withdrawal from it, including its pleasures, is at least somewhat understandable.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-67166909529013613662008-11-17T11:53:00.000-05:002008-11-17T11:53:00.000-05:00I also think that, though you may see the threesom...I also think that, though you may see the threesome suggestion as wholly a negative ending, in some ways Bunuel sees this as an improvement over Viridiana's former asceticism. To me, it's a purposefully ambiguous finale because Bunuel wants to leave us with mixed feelings: yes, Viridiana is in some ways being exploited here, but she's also rejected her former self-punishing streak (signified by the burning of the crown of thorns) in favor of an embrace of the world as it is. I think (and Bunuel would probably agree) that it's a good thing to go from denying the world to accepting it, even if Viridiana's circumstances are still far from ideal at the end.Ed Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18014222247676090467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-16374114880767190962008-11-17T11:49:00.000-05:002008-11-17T11:49:00.000-05:00Bill, I'm not talking about Viridiana rejecting he...Bill, I'm not talking about Viridiana rejecting her uncle's advances so much as her self-punishing streak, which Bunuel definitely mocks and satirizes. He is poking some fun at the masochistic, guilt-ridden, self-denying aspects of Catholicism: especially in Viridiana's crown of thorns and rough, hairshirt-like nightgown. This is connected to her naivete about the world; together her naivete and her ascetic lifestyle add up to a rejection of worldly pleasure in all its forms. Though Bunuel is sympathetic in some ways to religion, what he dislikes most about it is its tendency to ignore or actively fight against the evidence of the senses. Viridiana's asexuality goes beyond rejecting a lecherous uncle: it is a way of looking at the world that totally denies sensual experience, and masochistically seeks discomfort rather than happiness and pleasure. While Bunuel values the charitable impulse of religion -- even if he sees it as overly naive -- he has nothing but scorn for Viridiana's pious self-punishment.Ed Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18014222247676090467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-5140955879458981542008-11-17T11:17:00.000-05:002008-11-17T11:17:00.000-05:00Ed - No, because what form is the sex taking that ...Ed - No, because what form is the sex taking that Viridiana is rejecting? From her uncle, and from a rape attempt. And finally, as you pointed out earlier, a probable offer of a threesome from Jorge, which she may succumb to, but, as I said, I hardly think he audience is supposed to revel in that decision.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure Bunuel has plenty negative to say on that topic, but I honestly didn't see it here.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-31494392340997524922008-11-17T10:52:00.000-05:002008-11-17T10:52:00.000-05:00I'll second Marilyn on That Obscure Object -- if n...I'll second Marilyn on <I>That Obscure Object</I> -- if not Bunuel's absolute best, it's certainly up there. Also, I'm not 100% sure, but I think it was the first Bunuel I saw. Kind of perverse to start with his final picture, I guess, but it worked; I was hooked. It's no easier to write about than <I>Viridiana</I> is, though; I won't spoil it but I can promise you'll be puzzling over the meaning of many of Bunuel's aesthetic devices and choices in that film. I think what I like about Bunuel is that he so consistently short-circuits the tendencies of auteurist viewers to think of his choices in thematic terms. He calls attention to his aesthetics in very showy ways, and there are obvious thematic unities in his work, but he also makes sure that there's an element of ambivalence and ambiguity underneath everything, preventing any pat interpretations. <BR/><BR/>And Bill, you don't think that <I>Viridiana</I> critiques the sexually repressed aspects of Catholicism at all? I think that's a strong element in the film that works against its sympathetic portrayal of Christian charity.Ed Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18014222247676090467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-82176127403394714572008-11-17T10:41:00.000-05:002008-11-17T10:41:00.000-05:00His fetishes are fun to watch for, once you know w...<I>His fetishes are fun to watch for, once you know what he likes. Legs and artificial limbs are particular favorites.</I><BR/><BR/>What's not to love about Bunuel?Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05730146625671701859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-52265435172975539262008-11-17T09:55:00.000-05:002008-11-17T09:55:00.000-05:00I think That Obscure Object of Desire is his best....<I>I think That Obscure Object of Desire is his best.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, that clinches it. So look for a post where I flail around trying to write about that movie in about a week.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-6221384171273390292008-11-17T09:52:00.000-05:002008-11-17T09:52:00.000-05:00Whatever you like, Bill. I have seen just about ev...Whatever you like, Bill. I have seen just about everything Bunuel made that's available. The films can be similar, but I never get tired of them. I think <I>That Obscure Object of Desire</I> is his best.Marilynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15730000155687661753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-22039957008693915602008-11-17T09:40:00.000-05:002008-11-17T09:40:00.000-05:00I've been playing catch up a lot lately with certa...I've been playing catch up a lot lately with certain directors, with the help of Netflix, and right now I know I'm more interested in pursuing Bunuel than Godard. I think <I>That Obscure Object on Desire</I> is going to replace <I>Band of Outsiders</I> for the top spot, and maybe soon I'll be able to pick up on more of the things in Bunuel you're referring to.<BR/><BR/>I stand by my idea that <I>Viridiana</I> is misanthropic, though...bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-88452955214410281172008-11-17T09:33:00.000-05:002008-11-17T09:33:00.000-05:00The thing I like most about Bunuel is his playfuln...The thing I like most about Bunuel is his playfulness. Yes, he's against the foolish rules of church, state, and society, but he's much happier laughing a ridiculous obsessives and having a lot of fun with sexuality. His fetishes are fun to watch for, once you know what he likes. Legs and artificial limbs are particular favorites.Marilynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15730000155687661753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-51907166535840315762008-11-17T09:06:00.000-05:002008-11-17T09:06:00.000-05:00Really? Again, you know much more about his work ...Really? Again, you know much more about his work than I do, but from what I've seen he at least had a <I>little</I> misanthropy in him. That doesn't mean he was a full-fledged misanthrope, but I don't think he was unfamiliar with it.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-61506037856012274092008-11-17T09:01:00.000-05:002008-11-17T09:01:00.000-05:00The one thing I would never accuse Bunuel of is mi...The one thing I would never accuse Bunuel of is misanthropy. He had one of the greatest senses of humor in film, and was great at poking fun without deflation.Marilynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15730000155687661753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-45770423696628373672008-11-17T08:47:00.000-05:002008-11-17T08:47:00.000-05:00Jonathan - I don't think Bunuel's trying to conver...Jonathan - I don't think Bunuel's trying to convert religion away from fire and brimstone into an optimistic point of view, because there's no critique of the fire and brimstone type of Christianity, and look what Viridiana gets for her optimism. Maybe <B>Viridiana</B> is really about misanthropy, more than anything else.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-88217545944133705002008-11-17T08:04:00.000-05:002008-11-17T08:04:00.000-05:00To add to what Marilyn said, I think many people h...To add to what Marilyn said, I think many people have a hard time shaking a belief in God once it has been planted in them. I think Bunuel was one but his targets were along the lines of classes, organized religion and societal norms rather than God the entity. I think Bunuel wanted to be an atheist, but for him that meant rejecting religion, not God. To me at least that's how I've always interpreted him. And I think he knew that and toyed with it publicly like in the "atheist, thank God" quote Marilyn brought up. <BR/><BR/>Maybe the notion of religion being optimistic that you got from this was his way of trying to "convert" religion to a more hopeful or optimistic position. To put that idea in people's minds instead of judgment, fire and brimstone.Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05730146625671701859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-59888169053808169112008-11-17T00:08:00.000-05:002008-11-17T00:08:00.000-05:00Oh no, Viridiana is surrealist, I was just ramblin...Oh no, Viridiana is surrealist, I was just rambling because I think that "surrealist" has become a shortcut for everything Bunuel related. <BR/><BR/>Your other point is interesting, I remember that Orson Welles once called Bunuel the most Christian filmmaker of all time, that he "hated god in a way only a believer can."Krauthammerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12579174548781288062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-15463823399491387722008-11-16T23:17:00.000-05:002008-11-16T23:17:00.000-05:00All of his movies are not surrealist - for example...All of his movies are not surrealist - for example, <I>Belle de Jour</I> is a straight-up work of eroticism. Here's a <A HREF="http://www.cinemaretro.com/index.php?/archives/446-WHATS-IN-BELLE-DE-JOURS-BOX-CINEBEATS-INVESTIGATES.html" REL="nofollow">great article</A> on it by Kimberly Lindbergs.<BR/><BR/><I>Viridiana</I>, however, is another matter. I'm quoting from a pretty good article on surrealism from Wikipedia:<BR/><BR/>"Freud's work with free association, dream analysis and the hidden unconscious was of the utmost importance to the Surrealists in developing methods to liberate imagination. However, they embraced idiosyncrasy, while rejecting the idea of an underlying madness or darkness of the mind. (Later the idiosyncratic Salvador Dalí explained it as: "There is only one difference between a madman and me. I am not mad.")<BR/><BR/>"The group aimed to revolutionize human experience, including its personal, cultural, social, and political aspects, by freeing people from what they saw as false rationality, and restrictive customs and structures. Breton proclaimed, the true aim of Surrealism is "long live the social revolution, and it alone!" To this goal, at various times surrealists aligned with communism and anarchism."<BR/><BR/>Bunuel's rejection of religion in this film is a throwing off of the restrictions on imagination. I might surprise you by saying that I think Bunuel retained religious feelings throughout his life, hence, the paradox of his famous line, "I'm an atheist, thank god." He rejected the rigidity of organized religion, but I believe he found great inspiration in religion. Why else would so many of his films deal with it?Marilynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15730000155687661753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-2413725729993791462008-11-16T19:16:00.000-05:002008-11-16T19:16:00.000-05:00Krauthammer, that's my point: Bunuel's religious ...Krauthammer, that's my point: Bunuel's religious targets were not at all what I'm used to. There were no cheap shots or broad, bigoted generalizations. No, Bunuel's main criticism in this film seems to be that religion is far too optimistic.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-87423744094361271592008-11-16T16:50:00.000-05:002008-11-16T16:50:00.000-05:00I Think Bunuel was definitely a surrealist, in tha...I Think Bunuel was definitely a surrealist, in that he was explicitly a part of the surrealist movement. Friends with Dali, ect. ect. But I'm not sure that all his movies can be just called surrealist, he has his own little notes there.<BR/><BR/>I've only seen Viridiana once, so I could be wrong, but the treatment of religion really surprised me as well, but for different reasons. I knew that this was a "blasphemous" film going in, but I thought that it would attack what people like Bill Mahr tend to attack, ridiculing religion as stogy and violent. While there's some of that, I felt that the main attack on Christianity was its tradition of charity, which I was not expecting at all.Krauthammerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12579174548781288062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-57531564345418056002008-11-16T13:05:00.000-05:002008-11-16T13:05:00.000-05:00Surrealist in the sense of it being a dreamscape. ...Surrealist in the sense of it being a dreamscape. The film is filled with Freudian obsessions about sex and murder that would inform many of Bunuel's films. The idea that the mind is free to think what it likes and express those thoughts was something that got Bunuel thrown out of Franco's Spain.Marilynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15730000155687661753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-88218581552413822812008-11-16T11:12:00.000-05:002008-11-16T11:12:00.000-05:00Viridiana is primarily surrealist? In what way? ...<I>Viridiana</I> is primarily surrealist? In what way? I'm far less well-versed in Bunuel than you, Marilyn, so you're probably right, but when compared to certain other Bunuel films I've seen -- <I>The Exterminating Angel, The Discree Charm...</I> and <I>Un Chien Andelou</I> -- <I>Viridiana</I> seems positively tame in that respect.<BR/><BR/>Also, I'm noticing a pattern regarding Marilyn Mondays. I'll have to start making it easier on myself by making my Sunday posts all about how pretty I think Naomi Watts is.bill r.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17748572205731857892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-70042935404182380452008-11-16T08:49:00.000-05:002008-11-16T08:49:00.000-05:00In honor of this post, Marilyn Monday will be - no...In honor of this post, Marilyn Monday will be - no, not Catherine Deneuve, that's to predictable - but rather Carole Bouquet, who starred in Bunuel's last film, <I>That Obscure Object of Desire</I>.Marilynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15730000155687661753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2856547151523423474.post-61459350353396770262008-11-16T08:44:00.000-05:002008-11-16T08:44:00.000-05:00I would say that I am a full-fledged Bunuel freak,...I would say that I am a full-fledged Bunuel freak, and I wrote a review of <I>Viridiana</I> (and other Bunuel films) on FonF that might help you with this film. But I will quote part of it here, "Many of Buñuel's films rail against the hypocrisy and uselessness of the bourgeoisie, the Catholic Church, and the State. While these themes remain fairly constant throughout his genuine oeuvre (as opposed to the dozens of films he made for a buck in Mexico as a journeyman director), some of his films are informed primarily by his surrealist philosophy, and reflect his lifelong fascination with dreams. <I>Viridiana</I> is just such a film."Marilynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15730000155687661753noreply@blogger.com